So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.

IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

it shouldn't have the worst tank, rather than it not having the worst ore hold. besides, a small ore hold promotes fleet use, a small tank doesn't.
every cargo module in the game reduces a ship's ehp. cargo expanders reduce hull hp, cargo rigs reduce armour hp etc.
it follows that logic that the hulk should have more tank than the mackinaw.

For the love of God, give Mach's more PWG and CPU, It's on extremely extremely tight fit to tank it with 1 invu and 2x amplifiers which doesn't work. It's like you are saying "No, you can't tank it you need to die for using this ship !!"

Just my thoughts....but I see the problem as having different ships that are suppose to have different roles being used for roles they really weren't designed for.

Based on your reply, you can not read or are trolling. Try again.

As is this. this is what causes all this bipolarness about whether this is an exclusively player combat game.


EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"


^^^^^

That shouldn't be the case and shouldn't be made the case just because these bipartisan pussies for game devs are taking sides of the pvpers like obama is taking sides with the republicans.

Fix yo ****. Stop trying to make our S&I shittier be4 even trying to fix the damage you've done to the solo miner community. It's just irresponsible.

I wish they'd just decrease strip miners down to 60 second cycles and lasers to 30 second cycles. Would at least feel more engaging than it currently is. (Don't modify total yields, just reduce the cycle times and cap usage to accomodate.)

3 minute cycle times are just plain absurd, and it makes it feel soooooo slow. I love Mining, hell look at my corporation name, its all I do in this damn game. But taking 3 minutes per cycle is just crazy, if they were faster it'd feel more engaging/active than it currently does.

If you don't fit a Hulk for max. yield, including mining drones, then you may as well fly a Skiff or a Mackinaw.

It's not the tank that attracts gankers, it's the value of the ship compared to it's EHP.

The tanked Hulk fit you posted previously currently has a yield of 1367 m3 / min., while a max. yield Mackinaw hauls in 1718 m3 / min. with little compromise in tank, it costs less and has a much larger ore bay. The Hulk yield buff coming in Kronos won't change this.

A Hulk needs to be fitted for max. yield, or it is pointless to fly one. Saying differently just demonstrates a lack of experience with the subject matter.

PS: Many gankers has started to fit ECCM in their otherwise mostly empty mid slots, something which makes ECM drones even more ineffective.

you do make great points, BUT and here the BUT... ccp fozzie and the others do not care, they'll care once their monies drop even lower, but still they live in a bubble of denial..

They should be, but they're really not.....

It's similar to the problem with solo vs fleet missions. 5 people can do a mission and get 20% of the reward or 1 person can do a mission and get 100% of the reward. There's really no incentive to creating a group.

No, i'm not missing out on that fact. Though running with a logi and dps fit ships in a mission is more efficient, you instead run into the downtime between missions 5x+ as often as solo, which will have a negative impact on the efficiency of fleet missioning. But even without, it's only marginally better at the cost of having to rely on other people to be consistent in their efforts. Though in general if you have 5 guys it'll last about 2 missions before someone has to go afk or they start getting distracted and you end up with 4 guys doing work and doing a 5 way split.

As for mining in fleets.... Well first of all, the multiboxers, well instead of running 5 hulks and a hauler each they'd probably be running 6 Mackinaws. But 10 hulks is still probably better than 12 mackinaw's yield. However they can keep their own ore. When you run a fleet you end up with lots of little issues. Like in your example, do the guys with the hauling alts get the same cut as the guys putting in less effort? If they get compensated for the extra effort, how much? If they always have to haul, how often are they going to offer to do it for the rest of the group when they could just run an extra miner alt and make more? Who gets to hold all the ore? Can you really trust them to give you the proper cut? etc etc...

Yep why 5man a L4 mission when you can 5man incursion for 10x the profit of an L4 mission for each pilot?

Some of you talk about ops like they are a common, everyday type of experience.

Log in, join an op, be happy.

but if the heavy use of macks/retties is just because the vast majority of miners are loners and their alts, then its the nature of how they mine that pushes them into the rettie, not an imbalance between barges.

So you're saying L4 payout /5 is better than 5man incursion x5????

For me there is basically no significant reward for fleet mining with the exception of someone else running boosts and i get to run an extra barge. But generally, it's not a cohesive fleet, we just find our own spots and mine separately.

So please explain to me what are these "rewards" for group mining

If i can make a hulk resist two cats and jam a third, so can u.

[Hulk, Hulk tank] 25k EHP (or 27k against blasters)
Mining Laser Upgrade I
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hornet EC-300 x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Only if you don't care to use it for mining.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that 50/50 in text doesn't sound like "fifty-fifty" spoken. Many things don't translate well into text.

You missed the point. If you fleet for missions, incursions and ratting, you don't have to worry about the trust issues. Everything is split up automatically. For mining though, there is an extra reliance on the good intentions of others. The rewards for fleeting up are minimal. I'm not a solo player, i'm not anti-social, I just prefer to be in control of my income on my own. No other profession has to worry about something like this.

I'm not a solo player

I consider myself a "solo" miner

First of all, being in a fleet and going off and doing your own thing does no make up "group activity". It's just solo activity in a chatroom really.

Maybe you could could come up with some numbers for us in regards to these "rewards" that you keep insisting are available.

Also, I'm not sure about your fleet history thing, i'll have to check that out. But at the very least, it'll be a huge pain in the ass to keep track of. And i don't think i'll have the motivation to make a 3rd party program just to keep track of something that rarely happens and has little benefit when it does.

stuffs

Secondly, gankers and ECCM.

Have a look at your favorite KB for Isanamo, for the date of May 21st and back. Here CODEdot seem to be having a wee bit of trouble with 'White Knights' interfering with their ganking operations, so they (CODEdot) have fitted many of their Catalysts and Taloses with as much ECCM as will fit. Something similar has occasionally been seen in other systems in Lonetrek, like Kino. I don't know just how widespread this has become though.

The point is that these problems are counter productive to getting pilots to fleet together. Do you disagree with that?

Hmmm that's funny, i didn't realize that if i'm a solo miner i have to solo everything else in game too.. Very interesting.

A 5 man incursion pays each pilot 50,000isk and 50 CONCORD LP and takes 1-3 minutes to complete. That's 250,000isk and 250LP every 1-3 minutes total. Thats up to 15mil and 15,000LP per hour. So the L4 mission rewards are worth 5x this amount? (it's been a while since i missioned so I'm not actually sure if it is or isn't)

So you don't care how little emergence there is in the group, as long as you're in a fleet it's still "group play"? So if you're pvping in a fleet and you go off and kill something by your self, it's not a solo kill because you're in a group?

This example you give makes the assumption that the extra hulk would have been a dedicated hauler. When in all likely-hood it would have been another barge that would switch to a hauler occasionally.

The only way for Cohesive Fleet Mining to become desirable is to either increase the Reward or decrease the Work of fleet mining. That's what I'm saying.

Like i keep saying over and over. I know that there is some reward to trusting others and working together. But what I'm saying is that the work involved in getting that benefit is magnitudes greater than the reward. That's why "Grouping play" (or what i define it as) needs to have better reward vs work ratio. So either reward needs to increase or work needs to decrease.

So by calling miners notorious for being etc etc, i guess this means you're not a miner. However you obviously feel you're entitled to comment on how their game mechanics should/could work and blame the climate of the profession on the mindset of the players instead of failing to realize that the mechanics are what drive people to give off those perceptions.

frankly I think it's really bad that you can only achieve 50 mil per hour compared to everyone else who can make lvl 4 missions or Ratte or data site relic site wh we will sit here and work five times as hard to get earn one Plax and prodution is too pricey put in the time you wait 5-6 days to earn 50 mil on the market because the cost of putting it in operation + tax is too high for the head is worthwhile if you do not have multiple acounts I think not in order try low it a fair bit for us so we mines mines 50% faster compared to now .. just to make it a fair bit as we sit here staring into a screen exposed to pirates constantly just suicide ganker us ..

Then bump up yields a bit on the actual ORE frig/barge/exhumer. ORE frigs being basically free makes the market for producing or selling them awful.

You're ignoring other sizeable parts of the problem, then.